Abigoliah: Hello everyone, welcome to All British Comedy Explained. This is one of our special episodes where we try to do a little interview after the main episode. And this one is following up The Fall and Rise of Reginald Perrin. And guys, we are…
Tom: We try to get somebody connected with the show, you know, we try to get somebody who was involved, who can tell us stories about being on the set, but for some of these older shows that is tricky.
Abigoliah: Cause they’re all dead. And uh, but this time, guys, guys. We are thrilled that David Tennant is on the podcast this week. He really is one of those guys that as a cliché goes needs no introduction, but just in case you aren’t sure. He’s back on our screens later this year in the second series of Rivals, which is amazing. It is a British show I have seen. He shot to fame first as Casanova and then as the tenth Doctor Who. You might have also seen him in Broadchurch or as Barty Crouch in Harry Potter or on stage in Macbeth or Hamlet. He’s one of the most successful and able actors of his generation and he’s also a fan of old British comedy and this podcast. He agreed with me about my feelings about Monty Python’s Flying Circus so hahaha, take that internet. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the podcast, David Tennant.
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Abigoliah: Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I think is this the official start Tom?
Tom: Yeah. I think so.
Abigoliah: We’ve officially started.
Tom: Great.
Abigoliah: David Tennant, we always uh, when we can like to do a little interview after we cover an episode… usually of someone who’s actually connected to the show.
David: Ideally.
Abigoliah: We we’ll settle on this occasion.
David: Well there’s there’s none of them left.
Tom: That’s true.
Abigoliah: Yeah! And and so when we realised everyone from The Fall and Rise of Reginald Perrin has fallen, we were like well we better get David Tennant on.
David: It’s a I mean it’s the obvious choice. It is the obvious choice. Uh, so thank you for seeing that. Yeah, no, well I mean I don’t know what insight I have to offer that you haven’t already uh unpicked, but it is a show that I have… Well, it’s been interesting revisiting it. I have some memories of, they’re not it’s not quite the show that I remembered.
Abigoliah: Oh so what are the differences between the remembered Perrin and the actual Perrin? I had quite complicated feelings watching it for the first time so I’m really curious about how your rewatch went.
David: I think what I’m remembering is a a memory of my parents watching it. And watching it with them and and you know that way when you kind of receive something through the prism of grown-ups. I think I was watching it really quite young… and not really understanding it. I couldn’t have watched it on the first transmission cause I’d have been so small. But I think things were repeated so regularly back then… especially the big hits. They were on sort of fairly heavy rotation weren’t they. So I’m imagining I was maybe nine. And and my parents would watch it and would love it. And I remember the hippo. And I remember the the coloured phones. And I remember the the catchphrases. But really I remember Leonard Rossiter. And that I think is what when I then went back and watched more of it as a as a a young grown-up and have now gone back and watched more recently because of this, that’s the thing that’s the whole show really. It’s this sort of this kind of fizzing manic energy in the middle of it which I think that…
Tom: And all being done in front of a live audience.
David: Well that’s that’s the thing cause I went I watched the two episodes that you guys watched, and then I went off and watched the whole of series one again. Cause I I got I kind of got fascinated by the mechanics of it. That they did that in a five-day rehearsal. And the amount of words that he speaks. And the rapidity with which he speaks them. Just the workload to do that… I wonder if they recorded them in six week stretches, seven week stretches. Or or if they had gaps.
Tom: I think they did.
David: I don’t think so. I think they were back to back. That’s like weekly rep playing King Lear each week. The amount of work he did. And he’s so crisp with it.
Abigoliah: Mm.
Tom: One of the things I noticed just looking at him as an actor, and I’d be really interested to get your take on this is he to me steers a very accurate path between respecting every single syllable that’s on the page, but also when he needs to just kind of roughening it up a little bit. So it doesn’t sound rehearsed. There are a few little stumbles and misspeaks.
David: Yes.
Abigoliah: Yes.
David: But it incredible there aren’t more. Just because of the the the sort of amount of work it must have taken. And and he’s got a precision to him, he’s not just turned up. You know, ’cause sometimes um have you done Yes Minister yet?
Abigoliah: No, that’s coming.
David: Oh okay. Well as a little a little you can take this out if it’s a spoiler. But I rewatched some of them recently and Nigel Hawthorne you can tell that he’s had to learn it in five days. He’s kind of clinging on. He’s clinging on with his fingernails sometimes. And he’s glorious.
Abigoliah: Can you see his eyes moving across text that’s not there?
David: No it’s ’cause I don’t think that’s not the tradition, is it? They wouldn’t have had cue cards or anything like that.
Abigoliah: No, but I mean like I don’t know if you ever have this but when you like memorise a script but it’s not like in your bones yet so as you’re reciting it you’re just kind of looking at a pretend page because…
David: Yeah, yeah. But but there’s none of that with Leonard Rossiter is there? I mean he is he’s like a machine. I mean I believe he wasn’t the easiest man to work with. One has heard.
Tom: Yes. Have you ever done I was just thinking about this David, have you ever done like old-fashioned five camera sitcom like that where you’re simultaneously playing to the studio audience and to the cameras?
David: I’ve done episodes of… I’ve never done long term and I found it about the most difficult thing to do.
Abigoliah: What why was it so hard? Cause…
David: Because it has all the nerves of a sort of first night of a theatre show. And yet you’re sort of playing you’re playing to a camera that’s just there but you can’t help but be seduced to play to the audience and it doesn’t feel like you can mess up. Like you know, you don’t have the safety of a sort of single camera filming situation where where where it feels like you have some kind of agency over it. It feels like that audience is kind of setting the pace. And uh yeah I don’t I’ve not loved it when I’ve done it. I found it quite white knuckle really. It’s a very exposing… it is sort of it sort of happens like a live performance. I know you can do second takes and stuff, but it you kind of start and you don’t stop till the scene has finished. And every scene in Reggie Perrin is is him and someone else. I mean it’s a sort of series of two-handers. Sometimes three-handers, but he’s still got all the words all the time.
Tom: Yes.
Abigoliah: And people just chip up now and then with a like Yes, right away, uh-huh, yes, yeah.
David: Yeah exactly, or their little catchphrase. He just… but I mean the rhythm of it is glorious.
Tom: It’s amazing, isn’t it? Just amazing.
David: But it’s mad it’s not really a sitcom. I mean obviously it’s a sitcom. But it’s structured like a drama.
Abigoliah: Well and even the way he acts in it, we talked about this in our record, it’s like sometimes especially with sitcoms there’s a way of acting that almost feels like ‘Hi honey I’m home’ that’s a little bit presenting. Where I feel like all of ever all the work he’s doing is inside and like you said he’s just fizzing. There’s just this bubble of like unhappiness inside of… maybe that’s what he was really like, and so he didn’t have to reach that hard to find it.
David: It is interesting I mean clearly a man who had heart troubles and was taken long before his time. I I I don’t know if it’s I don’t know if one can draw a straight line but you can feel there’s a lot of stuff going on inside him. All the time.
Tom: Dick Van Dyke, happiest man alive, and he’s a hundred.
David: There you go.
Abigoliah: There you go. Still going, still dancing.
Tom: Yeah. So that darkness that goes through it I think is really interesting. We compared it on our recording to The Good Life because they’re both about this kind of feeling of being trapped in suburbia. The Good Life is the sunny optimistic version. And Reggie Perrin is kind of the dark weird angry version.
David: Oh it’s so… well it’s about a man having a nervous breakdown, isn’t it? I mean he’s in real trouble the the character. And he doesn’t shy away from that. I mean and the writing doesn’t shy away from that. I mean it’s it’s quite bleak and quite dark where he as he crumbles.
Tom: And how much of that did you feel when you were watching it at sort of 9, 10 years old? Were you just enjoying the catchphrases and the the cutaways to the hippos?
David: I don’t know I think I was I was definitely getting something of this very unique energy cause I remember being quite transfixed by him. And then realising he was the same man who was on Rising Damp on the other side.
Tom: Yes.
David: And they’re similar performances. Cause his energy is so distinctive. But they are they’re very different characters. And there’s I mean there are sort of there’s an abyss of pain in Reggie Perrin which is quite rare for a sitcom especially back then.
Abigoliah: So now that uh you’ve gone back and watched it as a as an adult, does it hit way different?
David: Oh god yeah. Yeah. I I was I found it… Particularly the early episodes. And the of series one. The early episodes and the final episode. It gets a bit more sitcom-y in the middle. Like there’s a kind of farce episode. Where where there’s just lots of people try he’s trying to have sex with his secretary and he’s trying to keep people out of the bedroom and it’s very that suddenly it feels like a 1970s sitcom. Briefly. Um, but the rest of it, and because it’s serialised. Because it doesn’t reset. I mean that’s kind of the rule of sitcom, isn’t it? That you kind of have to reset to zero at the start at the start and end of every episode. And it there’s just none of that going on.
Abigoliah: I uh this obviously was my first time seeing it and I left really conflicted. And I thought it was hilarious but like the darkness in it I was like I don’t I don’t know what I’m feeling I’m confused cause I enjoyed it but but my heart hurts. And then I went back and I’ve watched some episodes uh since Tom and I realised I was like oh I know why I had such I am Reginald Perrin. Like I I have the life of a 1975 uh 40 year old man who has everything he’s worked for. This is everything he wanted and is now just like is this it? Is this it?! Why is this it?! But yeah, it’s uh I don’t know, I feel like…
David: It’s quite tense to watch. It really is.
Abigoliah: And seeing it at a point cause he’s a he’s middle aged and I and I’ve just hit the big four-oh I’ll stop mentioning it once I’m over it. Um, but uh it it’s so I don’t know, whenever someone talks about old timey sitcoms, you always I always just think of how wholesome they are. And like The Good Life or I Love Lucy or The Dick Van Dyke Show or any of those ones that I watched on repeat growing up, they were just so sweet. And then I watched this and it’s like I mean it is like if Mad Men was a comedy. Like you know, it’s just like this un unhappy disgruntled man looking for more and not knowing where to find it.
David: Yes. And he doesn’t sweeten that pill, Leonard Rossiter. He he leans into the vinegar. Which is great.
Tom: I think that I think that’s part of… I was certainly aware when I watched it as a kid that there was something about him that was special. And it might be a bit dark and scary. But I I just think he’s he’s so unique and brilliant.
David: He’s amazing, isn’t he? He you know he’s in he’s in 2001 briefly. Underplaying as one of the uh the Russian scientists.
Abigoliah: Really?!
David: On the lunar base… no on the on the space station on the way to the moon.
Abigoliah: Um, I have a question for you both. Okay, so Tom you mentioned that the um David Nobbs wanted Ronnie Barker to play… Oh I mean that blew my mind.
Tom: Yes.
Abigoliah: Now all I know about Ronnie Barker because the the game of the podcast is I know nothing about British comedy. And truly I’ve not seen his work but when I was when I was putting together the social media all I could find is this jovial happy looking dude. And so is he as was he as happy as I assume he was cause that’s that would have been a complete tonal shift, right? Am I wrong?
David: He was a real chameleon. So it’s it’s hard to know. Uh his two most famous parts um in Open All Hours and Porridge really couldn’t be more different. You know young David Tennant was startled to discover that Rigsby and Reginald Perrin were the same actor. But you’d be even more startled to discover that those two characters were the same actor. Oh I mean he he was a proper character actor who loses lost himself in…
Abigoliah: Oh cool cool cool.
David: He really was. Yeah yeah. But it it he was his energy was was much more back foot. Even in Porridge where he’s quite he’s quite quirky and quick. It it would have I can’t it’s hard to imagine Reginald Perrin… I’m sure he would have found something brilliant in it cause it was a a fascinating script. But it would not have had that you wouldn’t have had that oh he’s on the verge of a heart attack at any moment sense I don’t think.
Tom: I wonder if he would have done it a bit similar to some of those you know fast talking wordplay monologues that he used to do on The Two Ronnies. He would have done something like that with it maybe.
David: Yes he’d probably have been slightly more patrician than I imagine, slightly more kind of old school.
Tom: But I think Abigoliah’s right he would have been more cuddly. And there are real sharp edges to Leonard Rossiter’s performance.
David: Yes he’s quite unpleasant. He’s quite hard to like. Especially when he does the things that he does. And as the series goes on I mean he’s he’s really cruel to his wife and to all those around him and… But then and then she gets a bit weird when she knows it’s him and pretends it’s not him towards the end of of of series one where she comes have you watched this Abigoliah…?
Abigoliah: This part I have I’ve gotten up to I’ve gotten up to the um uh the secretary coming over and uh yeah the them trying to get it on and it not working.
David: Right right right.
Abigoliah: Uh to be honest I was just happy she was into it after watching him fantasise about her for so long I was like well at least she she also wanted it. She is surprisingly into it isn’t she. Cause she doesn’t give a hint of that early on.
Tom: No.
Abigoliah: And then the next episode it’s that it’s just like well we’ll we’ll move on.
Tom: I can’t remember if this is in the episode or whether I cut it out but I remember telling Abigoliah uh in episode one there’s that bit of 16mm film of Reggie’s fantasy as they kind of embrace in the canoodle on the desk and I’m told that was Sue Nicholls’ first day filming on the Reginald Perrin series so that was essentially how she met Leonard Rossiter.
David: Right. Well. They always put the sex scenes up front case you fall out.
Tom: Is that right?!
Abigoliah: Do they really? Wait, no, I need to know that. Is that an insi… I need to know this about making things pop.
Tom: You’ll have to be prepared Abigoliah when it happens to you.
Abigoliah: I think I’ll be okay. I’m very much like the best friend energy like should my should that acting degree I have ever take off it’s not it’s dead. But should it ever I know where I belong. I’m the friend or I’m driver number two. Like these are the roles I can also play computer hacker and barista. These are, this is what I do.
Tom: Did any of the other supporting performances stand out for you? Cause it is a big ensemble. It is quite there’s a deep bench of British comedy talent there.
David: I I mean I think they all bring something rather glorious. The the they’re not afforded the range of material are they, they sort of come on say their catchphrase and go off pretty much. But they all do that they’re quite heightened aren’t they those other characters. They’re quite uh they’re sort of expanded humans. Uh which allows Reggie Perrin I guess to to just sort of play off them all. And they all bring very different kind of colours and tones don’t they I guess. But they all they all do it very well. I I because I started on a bit of a deep dive I even watched the first episode of The Legacy of Reginald Perrin.
Tom: Oh did you?
David: Where they all come back after he’s long gone. And they’re all still there.
Abigoliah: How how was it? Like is it terrible?
David: Okay, what a ringing endorsement. No I know. Well I mean it was quite famously a failure I think wasn’t it. But it’s not it’s not without charm. It’s just a bit it’s looking for a main character. Um and what’s interesting is Geoffrey Palmer who plays the the brother-in-law who’s got quite a small recurring role in the original series. By the time they came to do Legacy he was of course a huge sitcom star in his own right who had multiple sitcoms that he was the lead in. So he sort of ends up becoming a sort of de facto main character which means he’s not playing the same character that he played in the original Reginald Perrin he’s kind of he has to become the the kind of anchor really. Uh for so all the rest of them can come on and do their catchphrase and sort of shuffle off again.
Abigoliah: Yeah.
Tom: John Barron is the actor who uh I remember noticing when I was a kid. Such an extraordinary performance. I’d love to know if like he turned up on day one of rehearsals doing that. Yes.
Abigoliah: Wait which…
Tom: He’s CJ.
Abigoliah: CJ, yeah yeah yeah.
Tom: Cause you can see him in Whoops Apocalypse doing a pretty dodgy American accent. Right. Uh where he’s got some of the same sort of fire. Right. So this clearly isn’t a complete stretch for him. But just all those little weird details uh and those little kind of non-pauses. Uh it’s so it’s so extraordinary.
David: Yes he’s a proper sort of swivel-eyed lunatic isn’t he. Apparently apparently him and Leonard Rossiter were old friends. So I don’t know if oh that makes sense I don’t know if Leonard Rossiter brought him in or if it was just a coincidence but they seem to uh they seem to go way back yeah.
Abigoliah: They they really bounce off each other well. Yeah. I um I really liked the son-in-law. I I went when I went on to watch more I watched the episode where they go to the safari park and Leonard Rossiter is just like ‘Why are you like this?’ and he’s like ‘our children are adults’ and and he’s like ‘you’re an asshole, why are you an asshole’ like okay thanks Reg. Like I just I thought he he’s so it feels very very 2000s doesn’t it that character.
David: Yeah. Yeah, and and he does it in a really lovely kind of understated way like um yeah I also I feel like that’s a that’s a relationship someone has with an either in families that relationship exists somewhere you know I feel like that’s really recognisable um I uh. And the son, the unsuccessful actor son who’s doing a fringe play. Yeah. At the head and chickens or something. Uh I really liked him. But he he disappears. I don’t know why.
Tom: Yeah well the and the son-in-law gets recast I think in the third series.
Abigoliah: Oh does he?
Tom: Well he’s back in Legacy. The original is back in Legacy yeah. Tim Preece is back in Legacy yeah.
David: Oh okay. I wonder what happened there.
Tom: Yeah, not sure, not sure.
Abigoliah: Maybe got booked on something else.
Tom: I was telling Abigoliah that you have this extraordinary bench of comedy talent uh and most of them are now most famous for being in The Fall and Rise of Reginald Perrin because that’s that’s you know the show has such an influence. I’d say the only with the possible exception of Sue Nicholls I’d say they all are.
David: Well Rentaghost for me.
Tom: Rentaghost absolutely. And Coronation Street yeah yeah yeah.
Abigoliah: Wait a minute back up what’s Rentaghost? Is it a Is it a comedy?
David: It’s a kids show. A kids comedy yeah. So it’s uh it’s uh not not within our our rules but it ran for years and it was about a group of ghosts who essentially hire themselves out hence Rentaghost.
Tom: Sue Nicholls played Nadia Popov. It was terrific. Molly Weir is the Scottish witch. Hazel the MacWitch.
David: Oh there you go. Oh it was it was essential viewing when I was six years old. Yes, absolutely essential viewing. It was I wonder if it was great. I wonder if it was. Ah this is the thing we might rewatch it and discover it was actually terrible. That’s the terror isn’t it. Yeah yeah yeah. No everything that’s great when you’re six is always great. It ran for years and the the cast kept getting replaced and they brought new people in and it was a big hit.
Abigoliah: Okay I have to check this out.
Tom: I don’t know I don’t know how available it is.
David: Uh and then yeah doing this doing it every week and it was a complicated show. Uh it really is pushing the limits again um
Tom: we were fairly startled to to notice how much pre-filming was taking place on The Good Life. Yes. And remembering oh that means that when Penelope Keith walks into shot she has to remember how she walked out of shot in a shot that was done three weeks earlier in in a different part of London on film. And try to make it all join up. But this is very complicated. They’re really pushing the envelope.
David: Yeah really complicated. They sometimes cut they sometimes cut to 16mm for one tiny little cutaway and it’s really involved yeah. I noticed that uh that uh I did a show called Broadchurch for a while which was uh and I noticed that Reginald Perrin swam into the sea on the same beach where we discovered the body of Danny Latimer.
Abigoliah: Really?! Is that the same beach?
David: Yeah.
Tom: That’s amazing.
David: The beach at West Bay yeah. Took me a couple of episodes to realise I was looking at the same cliff.
Abigoliah: Oh that’s fantastic I had no idea.
David: And I don’t think I don’t know if you know this. This is back on my deep dive. I uh I started looking up uh old interviews with Leonard Rossiter cause I realised I didn’t really know what he was like. And it doesn’t give much away he’s quite inscrutable. Or in in sort of uh Pebble Mill at One life. Uh and he he he’s asked about that scene about whether it was him that swam into the sea. Do you know this Tom?
Tom: No.
David: I don’t know this but I was wondering if it’s him yeah. So he runs down the beach and that’s him he strips off his he strips naked and then he goes down uh under the sort of wedge of the cliff a stuntman takes over and does the swimming. So when the stuntman swimming out he’s he’s presumably cowering naked just out of shot. And the stuntman goes and they didn’t know how to summon him back so he just goes as long as he has until he finally comes back.
Tom: So it’s a cowboy switch.
David: A cowboy switch. Exactly. Yeah.
Abigoliah: Oh that’s fantastic.
David: I love that I love that he was like yeah I’ll get naked I’ll show my ass but I’m not swimming in that freezing sea. Exactly.
Tom: Uh but I wanted to give Abigoliah the full historical context so I I told her about um John Stonehouse and also uh you might remember uh Lord Lucan about the same time so there was this thing about like uh frustrated men who just wanted to disappear. Do you think that’s something that’s kind of universal? Have you ever experienced anything quite like that?
Abigoliah: This is quite a good interview if this is the one you admit that you want to swim into the sea. When you were on Broadchurch were you like I should pretend I’m dead?
Tom: Do you ever feel the call of the void?
David: You know if I’d realised I was on the same beach I might have been tempted. Um I wonder then if they filmed a lot of it down in the West Country if they if a lot of the anyway that’s a side issue. Um it is an interesting theme isn’t it. It it feels very 70s it feels very lots of people not being able to express themselves particularly well. Yeah.
Tom: And do you think it’s a particularly male thing? I one of the things I think put Abigoliah off it a little bit to begin with it feels like a very male world very male concern.
David: It’s quite a male show yeah. It is and the women don’t get much to do do they. It’s about a male midlife crisis.
Tom:
And the specifics of that, which tends to be about a sense of feeling like one has failed or one has peaked, like there’s nowhere new to go.
David: It is written from a very male point of view about the male experience, I think, for sure. I felt a bit sorry for Marjorie Yates, who doesn’t really seem to… she gets lovely billing after in the titles and then doesn’t really have anything to do.
Tom: Pauline Yates.
David: Pauline Yates, sorry. Sorry, yeah. She gets bits and pieces here and there. I think she probably is the second lead, but there’s a big old gap between number one and two on the call sheet.
Tom: That’s right, yeah, yeah.
Abigoliah: I mean, watching it I felt like, one, I thought it was kind of like a sexist show. I was like this… but when I think I was uncomfortable with his midlife crisis and how unhappy he was, and after I went home Tom I did think, I was like if they had put a woman in that role and she was like, “Fuck this, I’m gonna go be a pig farmer and I’m gonna sleep with my hot assistant,” I’d be like, “You go girl, you live your life, you do your thing,” you know.
Tom: Well, Bridget Christie’s essentially made that show and it’s tremendous.
David: Yes. Yeah. It’s brilliant. Yeah. But yes, it is a different energy and we don’t tend to feel… we don’t feel sorry for him the way we feel a bit sorry for Pauline Yates. We sort of feel he’s got what’s coming to him.
Tom: Yeah, but Pauline Yates feels a bit more like a victim, which again makes all these dark themes, and yet it’s played with such vim and we can’t help laughing at all the catchphrases. Yeah, it’s a really interesting cocktail.
Abigoliah: Well I guess like that’s the thing about a midlife crisis for Reginald Perrin. Actually nothing is wrong. But for him everything is wrong. Like he’s dissatisfied but he has he has the life he wanted to build and he has the ideal life. He has a good job he has he has kids one became an actor but we can’t win em all. And um and you know he’s got a nice house and his wife is lovely and looks after the home and looks after him. And so he has everything but he’s just I don’t know I guess lost the sense of adventure so then he runs off and tries to find it.
Tom: It felt like series two was slightly less bleak.
David: Mmm. I haven’t been able to find the rest of series two uh yet but…
Abigoliah: Fun fact it’s uh all of Reginald Perrin is on YouTube.
David: Ah. Oh.
Abigoliah: Uh illegally. Okay. But it but we didn’t put it there so we’re fine to consume it.
David: It was really interesting to learn that um that and I I don’t know what this makes me think about Leonard Rossiter. But it did make sense after I watched all of series one. The idea that it was from a novel. And the series one is the novel. And then they said do you want to go again and Leonard Rossiter went only if you write a book first. Yes. I thought I mean is that the sort of worst leading man behaviour or the best leading man behaviour I’m not I’m not sure which it is. But it does kind of make sense because it’s it’s a very complete it has an arc. And it ends in quite an unexpected again quite a weird place. But but it feels finished. So I can imagine the idea of going again it made sense to me when I got to the end of series one that that that Leonard Rossiter would kind of make that demand cause it it’s quite hard to know how you pick it up again.
Tom: Yeah.
Abigoliah: Well I mentioned this in our first episode but it first of all that as far as leading man I don’t know who can demand that I think it’s pretty cool that he’s like you have to write a book. But secondly like you know Game of Thrones they thought it’d be finished by the time the series was finished and it wasn’t and then they were and then no one was satisfied with the ending because it it didn’t come from uh George R.R. Martin or or you know whereas like if the book ended that way I bet everyone would have been like hey that’s the text baby. Yeah. Um but yeah it kept it from going I don’t know off a cliff I I suppose I don’t know. But then didn’t Nobbs also wrote the script you know what I mean it’s not like
David: But I suppose that also speaks to it not really being structurally a sitcom. It is structurally a drama. And you wouldn’t head into series two of a drama without having story conferences and deciding where those characters are going and whereas with a sitcom you go oh well yeah we you know back to square one by the by minute 30 anyway so we can just plough on. So I guess that that there was a necessity to that and maybe that’s very wise of Leonard Rossiter to kind of because ’cause on Rising Damp on the other side presumably they were just churning out another scenario where he you know he’s unlucky in love. That was sort of the same story every week you know. Yeah that kind of serialisation is quite rare. There are a few the other big sitcom I remember growing up that did it was Just Good Friends.
Tom: Do you remember that?
David: Oh yes.
Tom: Penny and Vince. Jan Francis and Paul Nicholas.
David: I do remember that. Wasn’t that a sort of loop though of they got together they split up. They got together they split up.
Tom: Kind of was yes. Yeah. But it still you expected to remember at which point in that loop they were left off at the end of the previous episode. Yes. Yeah. And of course Reggie Perrin’s a loop as well because he keeps coming back to Sunshine Desserts and faking his own death and coming back and and so on and so on.
David: And then that was it a Ben Elton sitcom Happy Families that was a serial?
Tom: Oh yes. Yeah but that was yeah that was a serial rather than a series. So yeah that was his his riff on on uh kind hearts and coronets.
Abigoliah: Right, right.
David: What’s the what’s the difference between a serial versus a series? Is it like a standalone?
Tom: Yes it was like a mini series essentially. It was a six part story and uh this is uh really the topic of another podcast altogether but uh according to legend Red Dwarf owes its existence to Happy Families.
Abigoliah: How come?
Tom: Uh because Happy Families was made by BBC Manchester and it was a Ben Elton sitcom so they just put in their planning for the next year Happy Families series two. But Ben Elton had only ever conceived of it as a uh a six part series. Uh and then what that meant was suddenly there was a little pot of money in BBC Manchester and nobody knew what to do with it. Uh but uh Paul Jackson who’d produced Happy Families remembered the science fiction comedy sitcom script that had already been turned down three times by the BBC. And he said I know what to do with this.
David: And 26 series later he was proved right.
Tom: Exactly. He absolutely was. Yeah so well you’ll no doubt hear that story again Abigoliah when we cover Red Dwarf.
Abigoliah: I can’t wait.
Tom: These are all just names that mean nothing to you, right? These are just things…
Abigoliah: I mean the I’ve gotten used to nodding. I know enough I know enough to go uh-huh, that. Okay, cool, you know. Uh, here’s my question for you, uh, both of you. I’ll start with you, David. Um, if you could play any character in The Fall and Rise of Reginald Perrin, who would you play? It’s okay to say Reginald Perrin.
David: Well listen, this is the problem. I mean that is that is the part of a lifetime, isn’t it. But, you know, you’d it would be like saying I want to play Columbo instead of Peter Falk. What’s the point? I mean I think I think it’s telling that they tried, Martin Clunes had a go, didn’t he. And
Tom: And he’s a great actor.
David: Yeah. Of course Martin Clunes can do can do no wrong but it’s just when when a part is so inhabited by an actor. What can you do? I mean would you do an impression of him? I mean you wouldn’t be as good as him. So then do you try and do it differently? I’m not actually what did Martin Clunes do?
Tom: He kind of played it as Martin Clunes.
David: As Martin Clunes, right. I think that’s all you could try and do. But but it Reginald Perrin is that performance. That’s I mean there’s lots of lovely stuff around it but that’s the show. So I’d like to do that but only if I could actually be Leonard Rossiter rather than a cheap imitation of him. Um so I suppose I don’t know who who else would be fun. Uh Super would be fun. What’s he called? Super.
Tom: Oh yes. David, is it?
David: Is it David I think it is yeah.
Tom: But it’s pretty much one note, isn’t it? I guess. Yes.
David: Well you can be you can be great and I’ll be super. How about that? Yeah okay that that’d be good. Good. Yeah.
Tom: Yeah. I mean I’d like to think I could pull off CJ but I don’t think I could. I think probably I am I am either great or super or I’m or I’m the wine making brother-in-law.
David: Oh yes that’s quite a good part actually isn’t it.
Tom: And there’s a… there’s again there’s a little sort of hint of sadness there as well. In the episode that we watched he has that moment where, uh, he sees somebody enthusiastically buying his terrible wine. He attempts to confront Reggie with the idea that, uh, this might be against the Trades Descriptions Act.
David: Yeah.
Tom: But he just realises that because his wine is undrinkable he’s going to make a lot of money out of it.
David: Yeah.
Tom: And just has to kind of live with that. Be that guy.
David: Yeah.
Tom: And the other thing, none of the characters are particularly content or particularly likeable really. It’s all pretty bold stuff.
David: And again, going back to when you were watching it as a kid, did it strike you that you were watching something that was really different, or did it seem all of a piece with It Ain’t Half Hot Mum and Open All Hours and the other things that were…
Tom: No, I think it did. I think it felt grown up.
David: Mmm.
Tom: I think that’s how my sort of nine-year-old brain interpreted it. So it felt like I was watching something that was a bit mysterious and my parents were loving it. So I was aware that there was something special about it. And it was… I think the peculiarity was clear. Even if it was a bit inexplicable to me and I couldn’t have defined it that way. I think I was aware it was odder and a bit more grown up and a bit weirder and maybe yes, a bit darker and…
Abigoliah: Did both your parents laugh really hard or did just your dad laugh and your mother look concerned?
David: My dad was always the one who would have laughed loud and hard at sitcoms. So it’s interesting. I don’t know. I mean they would have, my dad particularly, but they watched all the sitcoms. The Good Life would, you know, Terry and June, all of them. Which are certainly on the more traditional end. It Ain’t Half Hot Mum before we realised how awful it was. You know.
Tom: Do you know what, but this again is a podcast for another day, but I will mount a not full-blooded, but at least a partial defence of an awful lot of It Ain’t Half Hot Mum. I think it’s a much more thoughtful show than… oh…
Abigoliah: You may be right, I’m just thinking of the blacking up. Which now is very hard to… very hard to look past. Are we covering this soon? What?
Tom: Not soon, but maybe at some point, but I mean to be fair, they believed they couldn’t find an actor from the right background to play the part and Michael Bates had at least grown up in India and spoke Hindi which isn’t a bad start. Not as good as having someone who doesn’t require all the boot polish. To be clear. But…
Abigoliah: I’m gonna tell you right now Tom, you gotta edit this whole section out where you’re like “listen, he spoke Hindi.”
Tom: I’m keeping it in! Come for me. Come for me.
David: I mean yeah, it was… culturally things were acceptable in different directions, doesn’t mean it was right.
Tom: Yes. Absolutely. But yeah, we didn’t kind of have these conversations… and it’s sort of, um… I mean ’cause Reggie Perrin is also very white as well as being very male.
David: Very white. Yes.
Tom: Uh, but that’s just what television looked like in the 1970s.
David: Yes. Oh yeah, and the sexual politics aren’t great.
Tom: Yeah.
David: But then they’re not, they’re not sort of brushed over, that it’s all a bit… the grubbiness and the inappropriateness of it is not unacknowledged I think.
Abigoliah: No, no, no. It’s… well that was kind of part of it for me was I was like “is this…” I couldn’t tell if the sexism in it was happening because it’s the 70s and that was just like “tits are funny.” Or if it was a comment on like the men in this world and what they’re like, you know? Like the doctor who just always had porn out and is desperate to examine her chest endlessly.
David: Yeah. Feeling chesty? Yeah.
Abigoliah: Uh, and uh, yeah but none of them… none of them look like nice guys. None of, you know.
David: It’s… it’s such an interesting text, I don’t know when I saw a sitcom that we’re still talking about that both made me laugh and feel as uncomfortable as that has.
Abigoliah: Mmm.
Tom: That I think is gonna bring us somewhat close to the end. We do have a couple of questions we like to finish on.
David: Yeah.
Tom: Unless you have anything else that, uh, as Deborah says on The Guilty Feminist, is there anything that you came to say that you didn’t get to say?
David: I don’t think so. I wasn’t really expecting to end up doing this and being an expert on Reginald Perrin because I’m not. But I’m very glad that you asked me because I’ve so enjoyed rediscovering it.
Tom: Yeah.
David: And reacquainting myself with the nine-year-old who sat feeling slightly giddy and not really understanding why this, uh, series was so… was so exciting. And it’s made me remember sort of, uh, sitting and watching telly with my parents. It’s been very delightful.
Tom: We’ve loved having you on. So our thank you to you is, uh, cause uh, we’re a new podcast, we’re just getting going. We can’t pay guests, uh, but what we do say is, um… sorry…
Abigoliah: Surprise!
Tom: Uh, if there is a charity you support which you’d like our listeners to donate to then this is your opportunity to plug it.
David: Oh, well the Accord Hospice in Paisley was very important to both my parents. It unfortunately is where my mum died, but they, they both raised funds for it all their, uh… well towards the end of their lives, so uh, as this has a link to them, the Accord Hospice would be a nice place to honour.
Tom: Lovely. And we’ve talked about quite a few other shows and we hope this podcast of ours is going to run for a while.
David: Mmm.
Tom: Uh, what else should we be watching? There are some big hitters we’re definitely gonna check off at some point like Yes Minister, are there some more obscure shows that you think deserve a second airing?
David: Well one that I have and I will confess to having a little skin in the game cause I was in one episode.
Abigoliah: Okay that’s allowed.
David: Yeah okay. Uh, I wonder if you’ve considered Rab C. Nesbitt.
Abigoliah: Oh yes. No I hadn’t up till now but I remember it being on.
Tom: Which is a Scottish sitcom that ran for, yeah, quite a number of series.
David: Yeah. And is one of those shows that, um, sort of exists on a slightly transcendental form of British comedy which is Gregor Fisher who is, um, Rab C. Nesbitt. Who if you don’t know Rab C. Nesbitt, he is a very working class Scot. Very Glasgow. Um, Rab was in a sort of string vest and had a bandage on his head. And was sort of, uh, he kind of philosophised. I mean he was a drunk. But he would kind of, a lot of it Gregor would address the camera and do long monologues which were, uh, always surprisingly kind and progressive. Rab who’s this sort of, uh, chaotic, very male, working class Glaswegian, so you might expect him to have a certain set of values and actually, uh, for a sitcom that was, oh I mean early 90s I suppose, quite a long time ago now, had rather a progressive, uh, bent to it. Um, it was very traditional in lots of ways, quite music hall, quite pantomime, quite broad, but with a sort of tenderness and a wisdom to it that, um, I think makes it… elevated it above what it might have been.
Tom: Mmm.
David: So I suggest that. I mean I’m in one episode playing a transsexual barmaid which is not something which is not progressive casting.
Abigoliah: Oh no.
David: And not probably how you would choose to cast that role now. Different times. But the redeeming thing about that is a man transitioning to live as a woman in the early 90s in a sitcom on the BBC, you might expect the jokes to be… to not have aged well.
Tom: Mmm.
David: But Rab is very, uh, Rab and Davina, my character, have a very, uh, they understand one another and he understands the journey that she is on in a very, uh, a very 21st century way which is… which is rather touching actually. There’s still quite a lot of jokes about boobs and cocks but I don’t think… I listen, I haven’t checked. Forgive me. But I don’t… I think it’s aged okay.
Tom: Okay. Was that your first telly or not quite?
David: Uh, it was the first telly that meant anything to anyone in my family. Cause Rab C. Nesbitt was a big deal. So it felt like “you’re in an episode of Rab C. Nesbitt? Alright, maybe this is gonna work out after all. Maybe you’ll do it.”
Abigoliah: Uh, well when we cover it we’ll have to have you back on as our, as our guest again.
David: I would be honoured. Um, but you’d also you need to talk to Gregor cause he’s, I mean it is one of those performances that is… it’s just like Leonard Rossiter. It just… where an actor and a part just come together and something special happens.
Abigoliah: Say what’s it called… Nab… Rab C. Nesbitt.
David: Rab C. Nesbitt. And the other one where that… are you gonna do One Foot in the Grave?
Tom: Oh at some point yes, yeah, no immediate plans to but yes.
David: Richard Wilson as Victor Meldrew is another one of those moments where a part just finds the person that was born to play it.
Tom: Yeah.
Abigoliah: Actually I have one more question sort of similar to the “if you could play anyone in Fall and Rise” but David is there a sitcom that you would love to be in? It could be, um, an already done with sitcom or one out that you’re like “man I would love to be a part in that.”
David: Oh I don’t know. I do have when I’ve had to and I’ve only ever done it on stage, but I do love the discipline and the kind of euphoria of a real proper farce.
Abigoliah: Mmm.
David: You know a real sort of that when the doors slam open and shut at exactly the right moment and the… I do love the kind of… just the particular technique of it, the particular… the precision of it is so delicious. I’d quite like to do something like that. But maybe that’s I don’t know, it’s hard to sell that on television in quite the same way as you can do in a theatre really.
Abigoliah: Yeah. But in the theatre like Lend Me a Tenor comes to mind or Noises Off.
David: Noises Off yeah yeah. Noises Off is great. It’s just the sort of epitome of it isn’t it.
Abigoliah: Yeah.
Tom: Yeah. Or there’s a… there’s an incredible door slam in and out of doors scene in the first Marx Brothers movie The Cocoanuts.
David: Oh right.
Tom: Which of course they did on… they did on stage.
David: Right.
Tom: Uh, and the filming ’cause it’s obviously filmed in 1929 the filming is a bit primitive but you get a sense of just how electric that would have been for exactly that reason.
David: Yeah.
Tom: With these… it’s two adjoining hotel rooms each with a door upstage.
David: Right.
Tom: Uh, so uh, and people are coming in and out the whole time as someone’s trying to steal a necklace. It’s beautiful. It’s sort of what Fawlty Towers did on… I mean arguably that’s quite close to full on farce isn’t it?
David: Yeah exactly yeah yeah.
Tom: But again you don’t want to go “oh I’ll, I’ll reboot Fawlty Towers.”
David: No. Because uh, yeah I can, I can give a better Basil Fawlty, watch this.
Tom: Uh, well with that idea uh, now firmly in everyone’s imaginations… David Tennant thank you so much for joining us. It’s been really good fun.
David: Oh thank you. Sorry I’m not an expert but I’m an enthusiast.
Abigoliah: That’s all we ask for in the end.
* * * * *
Tom: He’s such a joy, just enthusiasm for this pours out of him… he’s such a delight to talk to.
Abigoliah: He’s so easy to talk to. I’m going to be honest, it’s, uh, we recorded this one later than we usually do our other podcasts and I have had trouble, uh, sitting down and focusing today cause I’m like “I’m gonna talk to David Tennant, I’m so nervous,” but he’s so… he’s so disarming and wonderful and uh, what a, what a mensch, he’s an absolute mensch.
Tom: He is, yeah, a complete delight. And, and, and I should say you know, uh, yes it’s true that I wrote and said would you like to come on the podcast but I did that because he brought up the podcast to me, uh, when he didn’t need to and, uh, he knew what that might lead to.
Abigoliah: Okay, so yeah, we’ve, uh, kept this under wraps but has that screenshot gone to every single one of my friends and my family? Absolutely. So guys, guys, uh, Tom was at an event for The Guilty Feminist podcast of which he is a producer on. And David Tennant was there. And without saying anything, David Tennant, Dave, the Doctor himself walked up to Tom Salinsky and goes “I really enjoy your podcast.” And then, and then, I’ll say it again, he goes “I found myself nodding along and agreeing to what Abigoliah had to say about Monty Python’s Flying Circus” and man I was going to a gig, I was on a train and it was raining and you sent me that and I was like “oh we have the best podcast ever cause David Tennant listens to it.”
Tom: Yes, what uh, what more seal of approval could you possibly ask for. Uh, yeah he’s, uh, he’s the loveliest man, he’s a brilliant actor, uh, and yeah part of me would like to see his interpretation of Reginald Perrin but a bigger part of me thinks he’s right, uh, that is an iconic performance that can never be replicated and you’re kind of on a hiding to nothing if you try.
Abigoliah: Yeah, but I will… one could argue it’s been so long since Reginald Perrin did it that there is room for someone to try to do it again.
Tom: Yeah. I mean he was not the first Hamlet. Let’s be clear about that.
Abigoliah: Yeah. But he was a very good Hamlet who… As you’ve, al… we’ve already done the episode so you can listen to our feelings on Hamlet, it’s a great Hamlet.
Tom: Yeah yeah. Um, alright lovely stuff so, um, next time, uh, we are going to be… what are we gonna be doing next? Is it Hancock?
Abigoliah: Yeah it’s Hancock.
Tom: Yeah. Uh, so next time I’m afraid, um, more misery and pain but we’re going all the way back to the early 60s.
Abigoliah: The show’s lovely! The show… more misery and pain let’s… It’s a very funny show guys. It’s a very funny show and, uh, we enjoyed it. Um, do you want to tell em real quick about our, uh, Patreon since, since we got a minute?
Tom: Yes, good point. Uh, yeah, so uh, we started a Patreon, uh, because we’re greedy, uh, and because we’ve been giving this podcast away for free for far too long. It will continue to be free but if you would like to pay us £3 a month then you can get ad-free episodes if the ads are annoying to you. Uh, if you want to give us £5 a month you get a little bonus extra conversations, uh, accompanying every episode.
Abigoliah: Yeah. And, uh, I know Tom said that we’re being greedy but I’m, I’m gonna level with you guys. We… it’s just Tom and I doing this podcast. Tom does all the research for the episodes. He edits the podcast, puts it together, we record it in his house. I… you do all the social stuff, all the reels. I do all the social media and let me tell you it takes time to put the clips together guys. I would like to get paid for it like the job I am treating it.
Tom: Yes. Absolutely. Uh, but, uh, if you can’t afford to or don’t want to that’s fine we’ll continue to make this podcast for free because we enjoy doing it so much.
Abigoliah: Yeah, we really do and we appreciate that you listen to it and, uh, if the Patreon’s not, uh, your thing right now just thanks for listening and feel free to tell a friend about the podcast you know. We’d appreciate it.
Tom: Alright. Abigoliah, I’ll see you back here very soon.
Abigoliah: I look forward to it.
Tom: Bye for now.
Abigoliah: Bye.