Abigoliah: Welcome, everyone, to All British Comedy Explained, the podcast where I finally learn about all the British comedies I’ve been missing out on. And with me is Tom Salinsky.
Tom: I’m going to give myself a mic, just to be super professional about this.
Abigoliah: Oh yeah – I didn’t even realise it wasn’t… Are we tired?
Tom: I can’t tell. A little bit.
Abigoliah: And with me is Tom Salinsky.
Tom: Hello there.
Abigoliah: Hello. Today we bring you one of our very special episodes with a guest: the fabulous Reverend Sara Chesterfield-Terry.
Tom: That’s a hell of a name.
Abigoliah: Isn’t it?
Tom: It’s right up there with Prunella Scales.
Abigoliah: I know. I mean, she doesn’t sound real – and yet she has been on our podcast.
Tom: Yes.
Abigoliah: Reverend Sara is a Church of England vicar and a lifelong British comedy fan, who grew up enjoying classics from Monty Python to The Vicar of Dibley. She’s passionate about inclusive and intergenerational church communities, bringing warmth and humour into every conversation. With a background that includes policing and civil engineering, along with ministry, Sara offers a unique perspective on faith, laughter, and the delightful quirks of church life.
So – we’ve just had the interview, and it was just so great to talk to Reverend Sara after watching.
Tom: Fully lived up to the hype. She’s incredible – so interesting to talk to.
Abigoliah: And I mentioned her very briefly in our episode on The Vicar of Dibley, because I was like, “I know one Church of England vicar.” And I just found it so fascinating, what she had to say about The Vicar of Dibley as a vicar herself.
Tom: And it’s possibly also worth pointing out that early on in our conversation you can hear some scrabbling noises – that’s her little dog, who I think you can also glimpse in the corner of the frame if you’re watching the YouTube version. It doesn’t last too long, so hopefully it won’t be too much of a distraction. And who doesn’t want a little dog appearing halfway through a podcast?
Abigoliah: Yeah – just a little adorable greyhound. Just a tiny little dog. So you might hear that in the background. But – well, should we just get straight into it?
Tom: Let’s go straight in.
Abigoliah: All right, here we go.
Tom: This is All British Comedy Explained, with Abigoliah Schamaun, Tom Salinsky, and our special guest, Reverend Sara Chesterfield-Terry.
Abigoliah: Well, Sara, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Sara: Oh no, it’s my pleasure. I’ve been really excited – because actually, just listening to all the episodes and all the guests, I’m in the same room as David Tennant. That’s amazing.
Tom: That is how that works, yeah.
Abigoliah: Yeah. Well, the reason we wanted to have you on is – Sara and I, for our listeners – we met when you were so kind to give me and Ria Lina, another fabulous comedian, a lift one time when all the trains were down. And as I’ve told you, you are one of the most fascinating and interesting people I’ve ever met.
Sara: No, no, no – honey, you need to get out more. There are far more interesting people than me. I’m really very, very dull. I haven’t done anything exciting, I promise you.
Abigoliah: Well, you are also the only vicar I know, so – right there.
Sara: Yeah, OK, I’ll take that one. But again, vicars don’t get out much. They don’t like us getting out into the real world, because that’s kind of scary – and we might say stuff…
Abigoliah: So that’s why we’ve decided to have you on a podcast, because now you can say anything you want.
Sara: I’d still like to get a new parish, so I possibly won’t. I was also looking at it – the original main cast of Dibley are sadly no longer with us. They’ve gone on to join the ultimate Vicar of Dibley. But yes.
Tom: Yeah – this is what happens if you build your cast around eccentric old men. They tend not to last long enough to come back and do 50-year reunions.
Sara: Well, I think that’s very short-sighted. I’m disappointed.
Tom: So Sara, I don’t know you anything like as well as Abigoliah does. Can you fill me in – tell us about your career to date? Because I understand there are some interesting ports of call along the way… until you ended up in the dog collar.
Sara: Right. So – OK. When I was at university, I went to Kingston and did civil engineering. I also worked as a door supervisor for two reasons: one, it pays incredibly well compared to most student jobs; and secondly, it’s all night, which means you can fit lectures and study around it quite well. And you get into good nightclubs for free, which is a bit more fun.
So when I looked at civil engineering as a degree, I thought I could either build beautiful things or useful things – and it all turned out to be about trying to make money. And that’s really not what I’m about.
I was working a lot with the police, obviously, because of what I was doing, and I could see they were making a difference. So that’s when the police role first started out for me – we’re looking at about 2005, when I was just finishing university. So I went off and joined as a CSO, did that for six years, and partway through that I got my calling to be a vicar – as one does, obviously.
From there, I went back to university, up to Oxford, and did three years – mostly in Oxford, a little bit in Rome. Then I became a vicar, and then I came out as trans. I’m still a priest – so “priest” and “vicar” are slightly different – but I am working in a civil job, and also doing church work on the side, occasionally on Sundays.
Tom: Tell us the difference between a priest and a vicar – because I remember Abigoliah asking me questions about that, and I had to say, “That is outside my core competence area.”
Sara: OK – so… I’ll try and do this simply. There are three orders of clergy: deacon, priest, and bishop.
Everybody is first ordained as a deacon – that’s Greek for “servant”. You spend at least your first year in ministry as a deacon. Some people remain permanent deacons: they assist at services but don’t lead them, and they can’t conduct weddings. They’re not “lower down”, but they have a slightly different role.
After that first year, most deacons are ordained as priests. Then you can lead services, conduct weddings, and so on. And then you can become a bishop, which is basically a kind of manager of a group of clergy. There are also archbishops, but they’re few and far between.
So that’s the structure. In terms of priest versus vicar: everyone who is a vicar is a priest, but not every priest is a vicar. You’re only a vicar if you have responsibility for a parish.
The whole of England – and Wales and Scotland – are divided into geographical areas called parishes, usually with their own church. Traditionally, each would also have had its own rector. These days, a lot of parishes are grouped together into what’s called a benefice, with a small team of clergy covering them.
Abigoliah: No, no – I’m very interested in this. So can a priest start their own parish, or does every parish have to be sanctioned by the Church of England?
Sara: The Church of England has already divided the country into parishes. But you do get what’s called church planting – where priests are sent into an area to create a new worshipping community.
They won’t usually take over an existing church building – which can be a blessing or a curse, because some of those buildings are incredibly expensive to maintain – but instead they might hire a hall or a school and build something new.
That’s usually done under something called a Bishop’s Mission Order – so the bishop sends a priest to start this new community. They might not do weddings or funerals – that would still go through the local parish church – but they’ll often do baptisms. And they don’t have the burden of managing a building, which can be quite significant.
Does that make sense?
Abigoliah: Yeah – it almost sounds like franchises, but not… you know what I mean?
Tom: Yeah.
Sara: No, you’re not far off – except the start-up costs are a bit lower.
Abigoliah: And can I just ask – how did you… I don’t even know how to phrase it – how did you receive your calling? Because it sounds like quite an intense spiritual thing.
Sara: It was bizarre. I mean, I was really happy working in the police. I loved my job – I had an amazing team, a really good partner I worked with. I was working in a semi-rural town and got stuck into everything. It felt worthwhile.
And then one day I just had this thought stuck in my head: you need to go into ministry, you need to become a priest.
I tried ignoring it. The best way to describe it is like when you’re up in the hills and there’s a thunderstorm – you can hear the thunder rolling around. Sometimes it’s loud, sometimes quieter, but it’s always there. And this thought just kept coming back: you need to, you need to, you need to…
After about six months of trying to ignore it, I gave in. I called a lovely vicar friend of mine – Father Simon – who’d known me since I was about five, and said, “Can you just tell me I’m being an idiot so I can get on with my life?” Because I genuinely loved what I was doing.
And he said, “No – you need to go and do something about this. Go and speak to a local vicar.”
So I did. And then I dragged my feet for as long as possible – I spent about four years avoiding it.
The process itself is quite strange, because you don’t actually need any qualifications to become a vicar. When you first speak to someone, it’s not about what you’ve done academically – it’s about whether the Church thinks you have the right qualities.
Tom: The old boys’ club.
Sara: Not really. It’s more… unusual than that. They want to make sure you’re not “mad, bad, or dangerous to know”.
Abigoliah: I mean, I think that’s a fair thing to ask.
Sara: Yes – but, Abigoliah, you’ve met me before.
Abigoliah: I know you’re not mad, bad, or dangerous to know.
Sara: You don’t know me that well…
So there are lots of conversations, lots of prayer. They’re asking: do you have a genuine sense of calling? Do you love God? Do you understand what this life involves?
Eventually, you spend a few days with a group of other candidates being assessed on everything. And I mean everything – the assessment starts the moment you arrive. Mealtimes, conversations, how you behave with other people.
The only thing they don’t assess is how you pray – whether you put your hands in the air, close your eyes, kneel, whatever. That’s left alone.
But everything else is observed. How do you interact? Are you selfish? Do you look out for other people? It’s basic stuff, really – like making sure everyone gets food before you help yourself.
You also have to give a short talk on a given subject, and do written exercises – like writing a pastoral letter in response to someone sharing something quite personal.
And that part feels very artificial, because in real life you’d say, “Let’s meet for a coffee and talk properly,” rather than writing a letter. So it’s a slightly strange, quite forced process – but that’s how it works.
Sara: I came away from that feeling really deflated. I was assessed up near Ely Cathedral, and we were told that if you go to any cathedral and say you’re there for an assessment, they’ll let you in – because most cathedrals charge.
So I wandered along and said, “I’m being assessed for clergy – could I just find somewhere quiet to pray?” I must have looked completely shell-shocked or distressed, because they said, “Oh yes, we’ll get a vicar for you,” and clearly thought I was having some sort of emotional crisis. So that wasn’t a great look.
At the end of the process, they spend days discussing and assessing you, and then they send a report to the bishop, who decides whether they’re going to fund you. Because sending people to university for two or three years is expensive – and, bluntly, they don’t want to invest in people who are going to fail. They want people who are going to do well.
Abigoliah: So the Church pays for you to go to seminary? Oh, that’s cool.
Sara: Yeah – well, “seminary” is more of an American or Catholic term. For us, it’s theological college – basically “God-thinking college”.
So I went up to Oxford, to one of the colleges there. I had a two-year course, and then a third year where they basically said, “What do you want to do?” Because I already had a bachelor’s degree, so there was no point doing another one.
I did the core training, then a graduate diploma, and in my third year I applied for everything going. There was an exchange to Rome, and a two-week pilgrimage to the Holy Land – back when it wasn’t being bombed – which was nice.
So yeah, I ended up doing some quite strange but amazing things.
Abigoliah: That’s cool. And you mentioned in a text – you just dropped this in and I was like, “Don’t tell me anything else, wait for the podcast” – but you said, “Oh, by the way, I might have heckled Pope Francis.”
Sara: OK – yeah.
There’s a long-standing ecumenical exchange between the Church of England and the Roman Catholic Church, so I was sent to Rome to represent the Church of England.
Tom: Right.
Sara: Lots of countries have theological colleges in Rome – the Venerable English College, the American College, the Scottish College – where they train people who are going to be ordained as Roman Catholic priests. So I went and lived there with these trainee priests, who were all lovely.
As part of that, we went to a papal audience. Every Wednesday, the Pope does one in St Peter’s Square. And it’s like a cross between a rock concert and a church service – 20 or 30,000 people all gathered to hear the Pope speak.
There’s a Bible reading in multiple languages, then the Pope – Pope Francis – gave his address, I think in Italian, and that’s translated into different languages. There are prayers, and then they do a welcome to pilgrims from different countries, again in multiple languages.
Then they give shout-outs to particular groups. As the new intake for the Venerable English College, we were going to be named.
Now, the rector – the head of the college – spoke in this very precise, clerical way. And he told us: “When Pope Francis welcomes the college, I want you to cheer very loudly so that the Holy Father can hear us.”
Now – you know me. I can be quite loud. I was trained to project. I’m built for big spaces.
So when the groups were being named, there were polite cheers and the Pope just carried on. But the seven of us, off to one side – we were loud. And he actually stopped, turned, and looked at us.
So I’m not going to claim full credit for heckling the Pope – but a very small group of us were loud enough to make Pope Francis stop.
Abigoliah: That’s amazing. And you did exactly what you were asked to do.
Sara: Exactly. If I’m given permission, I go all in.
Abigoliah: Your vicar basically said, “Cheer loud enough that God can hear you.” And if you make the Pope turn – he’s meant to be the direct line – so yeah.
Sara: He’s Jesus’s vicar, so if I get a thumbs-up from him, I’ll take it.
Tom: I’d love to talk to you about comedy. It’s clear you’re a big fan. What do you remember growing up?
Sara: When you ask that, my brain just fizzes – there’s so much. “Oh, what about this? What about that?” I forget things and then remember them again.
Tom: Was there something growing up where you thought, “That’s mine – that’s the one that speaks to me”?
Sara: I grew up with a mix of older television – recordings of films and things – but also Radio 4, which was always on in the kitchen.
So all the big comedy shows – I’m Sorry I Haven’t a Clue, The News Quiz, Just a Minute – those long-running, brilliant series. And also older stuff like Round the Horne, The Goon Show…
Abigoliah: Yeah.
Sara: I mean, I’m going to agree with you on that. There are bits that are great – and bits where you think, “Oh no…” It’s very much of its time, and you have to recognise that. Some of it is properly uncomfortable now.
Spike Milligan is incredibly funny – his books are brilliant. If you ever find The Old Testament According to Spike Milligan, it’s fantastic – very funny, very well written. But some of the voices and accents… yeah. Not comfortable.
Same with Hancock’s Half Hour, which I’ve just finished listening to. Some of it’s funny, and other bits are very much of their time. But the catchphrases have become part of the culture.
And then – Yes Minister, Yes, Prime Minister – I adore them. They’re my comfort watch. I love the wordplay, the back-and-forth between Humphrey Appleby and Jim Hacker, and Bernard just popping in with these little one-liners.
It’s superb. And I’ve got the audio version, so if I run out of things to listen to, I just put that on. It’s gentle, it holds up really well – some bits are dated, but overall it still works.
Tom: It’s all right – I’ve seen it. We haven’t put the episode out yet, but a small spoiler: there’s a scene where Jim Hacker, as Prime Minister, is convinced one of his cabinet members is plotting against him. He says to Humphrey, “It’s envy – you know, Dudley’s consumed by envy. One of – ”
Sara: – the –
Tom: – seven deadly sins.
Sara: Exactly. Sorry – I’ve jumped all over your line.
But also, in the first episode of Yes, Prime Minister, when they’re talking about nuclear defence – whether the Russians know that Britain… well, that Jim Hacker would never actually use nuclear weapons –
Speaker (clip): “It’s a bluff.”
“I probably wouldn’t use it.”
“Yes, but they don’t know that.”
“They probably do know that.”
“They probably know that you probably wouldn’t – but they can’t certainly know.”
“They probably certainly know that I probably wouldn’t.”
“Yes, but even though they probably certainly know that you probably wouldn’t, they don’t certainly know that – although you probably wouldn’t. There’s no probability that you certainly would.”
Sara: And it just gets more and more convoluted – boom, boom, boom – and it’s just genius. I love it.
Sorry – I know what we’re meant to be talking about, but I absolutely adore that show.
And then – Monty Python. I grew up on the films, and I’ve watched Flying Circus. Again, there are bits that are absolutely gorgeous, and bits where you think, “Why did that get made? Why did that make the cut?”
The films are much more polished. Like you said, Tom – The Meaning of Life, where they’ve taken the best material and refined it – it’s brilliant. Whereas the original series is properly mad.
Tom: They had 13 half-hours to fill and no time.
Sara: Exactly. There’s a lot of energy, a lot of half-formed ideas that just got through. But in terms of changing the style of comedy – it’s amazing.
So I understand why you didn’t put Flying Circus on the shelf, but at the same time, I think Monty Python as an entity probably should be there.
Abigoliah: I mean, I agree they changed the game – but the shelf is for the show.
Tom: Yeah.
Sara: Fair.
Abigoliah: What about The Vicar of Dibley? Did you watch it when you were young?
Sara: Oh my gosh, yes. It came out in 1994, so I was about 12, and I watched it with my family. It was just really good fun – very light-hearted.
When you asked me to come on, I went back and watched the series again, and it felt like putting on a comfy jacket – your sort of mental support hoodie. It’s a bit worn, a bit rough around the edges, but it’s so comfortable. It’s just lovely.
And I think it does stand up. Some references are dated, and there are assumptions about general knowledge that feel a bit off now – but overall, it really works.
Tom: Does it feel like parish life? Are there things it gets absolutely right – or things it gets wrong?
Sara: I think the characters are very well written. No single character exists exactly as they are – take David Horton, for example – but if you break him up into his component parts, every element of him exists somewhere.
Same with Alice the verger, Owen the farmer… all these people exist in parish life. They’ve just been condensed into single characters.
You’ve got the over-officious “I’m in charge” person – that exists. The keen but slightly naive person – that exists. The slightly eccentric one who’s obsessed with baking or crochet – that absolutely exists.
You could go to any parish and, if you spoke honestly to the vicar, they’d say, “Yes, those people are real.”
And looking back now, with a ministry perspective rather than as a kid watching it, I can see exactly where all those traits come from.
I also think Dawn French was a real break from the traditional portrayal of vicars on TV. Before that, they were usually men – often either drunk and old, or innocent and naive, or slightly inept, or very earnest and nervous.
Geraldine is much more of a real person. She has flaws, but she’s not defined by them. She has gifts, but she doesn’t cling to them. She gives a good sermon – and sometimes a bad one. That’s real.
She doesn’t exist as a single person, but all those characteristics do. And it’s a much better representation than something like Father Ted – which I assume you’re going to come to.
Tom: Well, let me get your steer on that. Father Ted is a big show, and it’s come up. Because we’re doing themes, we haven’t yet had one that obviously includes it – but I’d like Abigoliah to see it. Am I allowed to show it to her?
Abigoliah, on episode zero you said we might be watching shows made by people we now know are… problematic. And that’s very much true here.
Abigoliah: So basically we’re asking you, as a trans woman, if we’re allowed to watch Father Ted – not as a vicar, not as a comedy fan.
Sara: OK. From a purely critical perspective, the show is very, very funny. It plays with all those tropes, it’s a bit silly, it’s got great slapstick.
If you set aside the people involved – Graham Linehan, for example – it’s genuinely excellent. But obviously that does make it harder to enjoy.
It’s similar to certain other creators who’ve gone down that path – it puts a shadow over the work.
That said, there are episodes – like the Christmas special in the department store – that are just brilliant. And having spent time in a Roman Catholic seminary, I can say: there are Dougal figures, there are Father Jack figures.
Tom: Yes – it’s such an amazing show.
Sara: It really is. It’s clever, it’s well observed – it’s just a shame about the people around it.
So in terms of watching it – I think it’s worth it. It’s culturally important, and it’s very funny. But it’s also worth being aware of who was involved.
That’s not a neat answer, I’m afraid – but it’s an honest one.
Abigoliah: I think you bring up a really good point. We’re obviously watching these comedies to enjoy them, but also to discuss what they mean in terms of the social history of the country – how they’ve shaped comedy and British culture more generally. So for that reason it’s like, OK, maybe we should look at it – but, you know…
Sara: Yeah. I mean, there are certain key elements that have become catchphrases which have gone beyond the show itself. Like Mrs Doyle with the tea – “Go on, go on, go on” – that’s just gone into the mainstream. It’s probably less common now, but growing up, that was everywhere.
So I think it’s worth having an awareness of it. Sometimes it’s like Gone with the Wind – there are some incredibly racist tropes in it, but in terms of understanding film history, it’s still important to see it. As long as we’re aware of the flaws and can address them, that’s OK.
I don’t really agree with the idea of separating the art from the artist. I think it was Nish Kumar who made the point – you can’t just say, “Well, what about Hitler? He was an artist. Can we appreciate the art separately?” It doesn’t really work like that.
So yes – be aware of it, and also recognise the damage that creators can do, especially when they’re targeting very small minorities. Trans people are, what, one or two per cent of the population? We’re not scary. Well – actually, I’m a little bit scary.
Abigoliah: It’s hard –
Tom: For us – wow, we’re going to laugh at you.
Abigoliah: I mean, you’re also wearing your vicar collar thing – so now I am terrified.
Sara: I’ve said this to people and everyone laughs at me…
Abigoliah: Just real quick – and Tom, you’ll probably want to edit this out – but going back to Gone with the Wind and covering cultural films on podcasts: one of my favourite podcasts, What Went Wrong, covers it, and I think they handle it really well. Just a suggestion for you both.
Tom: There’s also the estimable movie podcast Best Pick, which I have some connection to, which covered Gone with the Wind. And I hope we handled those issues gracefully.
Abigoliah: I’ll have to go back and listen to that one.
But I want to get back to Geraldine Granger. So when you were going through – what’s it called again?
Sara: Theological college.
Abigoliah: Theological college. Or “vicar school” – I like that.
When you were going through that, did you ever look at Geraldine as a kind of role model? I know she’s a sitcom character and a bit ridiculous, but –
Sara: But she’s also very personable.
She engages with her congregation. She can talk to everyone – even David Horton, who’s essentially the antagonist. They spar, but she still connects with him. And I’d like to think that if he were in crisis, or needed spiritual guidance, he could go to her.
That approachability is incredibly important. There are a lot of clergy – both in real life and on TV – who are judgmental, aloof, or just not easy to approach. Geraldine isn’t like that.
If I were grieving, I’d want to go and talk to someone like her. Once you strip away the comedy, there’s a serious, compassionate person there – and that’s really important. We’re meant to be servants. We’re there to serve our communities and to serve God.
If you’re unapproachable, you’re not doing the job properly.
That’s getting quite serious for a moment, but the Church has such a bad reputation for getting things wrong. It’s important that when we get it right, people can see that.
We shouldn’t be the ones judging or condemning people who are going through something difficult. If someone’s in a domestic abuse situation, for example, the answer isn’t “stay because you’re married” – it’s “get out, and we’ll help you find safety”.
That’s the kind of clergy we need.
If you look at the Bible, that’s not what Jesus does. He does very little condemning. He shows love, forgiveness, and support – and that’s what the Church should be.
There are some very hardline voices that have shaped the Church’s reputation, but that’s not the whole picture.
Jesus wasn’t about punishing people or kicking them when they were down. He was about saying, “You’re loved, you’re forgiven, we’ll help you.” That’s what clergy should embody.
If we can’t do that, we shouldn’t be wearing the collar.
We should be trying to live out those teachings as best we can. I haven’t yet managed to turn water into wine – but I’m working on it.
Tom: You’ll figure it out.
Sara: But fundamentally, if in doubt, Jesus shows compassion and love. That’s where we should be.
And when you see things like Christian nationalism – particularly in the US, and starting to creep into the UK – it goes against that. Jesus doesn’t have a country. He’s not drawing boundaries or deciding who’s acceptable.
He welcomes everyone. Love God, love your neighbour – that’s it.
Tom: There’s that American “guns for Jesus” movement, and what’s remarkable is that they don’t see the contradiction.
Sara: No – they really don’t.
Sara: Yeah – this is one thing. Especially when people say, “Oh, we need to be pro-life because Jesus.” Pro-life – yes, absolutely, he is pro-life. But you can’t say, “I’m pro-life” and also “I’m pro-gun”, because guns take lives. That’s what they’re built to do – their entire purpose.
I understand the original logic of having guns – when they were muskets, single-shot, taking a minute to reload. Not an AR-15 where you can fire 30 rounds in as many seconds.
This is getting very political – you may want to cut this.
Tom: It’s up to you.
Sara: I don’t mind – I’ll probably get complaints, but I’m used to that.
The Constitution was written in a very different time. And I don’t think – well, I’d hope there might have been some founding mothers – but I don’t think if modern weapons had existed then, it would have been written in the same way.
Things change. Society evolves. Some things improve, some don’t – but we need to respond to that responsibly as a society and as a community.
Tom: I find it particularly ironic that Americans hold so fast to something called the Second Amendment – and again, they seem incapable of appreciating the irony of that either.
Sara: And there have been amendments since – prohibition, for example, was introduced and then repealed. So change is possible.
But this is where it becomes frustrating, because it’s about political will – and money. And you end up asking: how much is a life worth? How much is a child’s life worth? Or the thousands of people who are killed every year – not just in America, but globally – by guns?
Tom: Do you think comedy has a role to play in changing that conversation? We’re thinking of doing satire in a future season – looking at some satire shows.
Sara: Yeah, definitely. Satire holds up a mirror to ourselves and pushes things to the point of absurdity – and that’s really important.
It’s harder, though, when the people in power are already so absurd.
I mean – I hope you get to it at some point, because it’s brilliant –
Abigoliah: I would like to. I saw one sketch and thought, “Well, now we can’t not watch it.”
Tom: We have done The Day Today.
Abigoliah: This is a sticking point.
Sara: Brass Eye is brilliant. The “Paedogeddon” episode is incredibly hard-hitting – and again, it highlighted the hysteria around the issue.
It even got raised in Parliament, with people saying it should be banned because it might encourage people – which it absolutely didn’t. It was critiquing the panic.
And then politicians were asked, “Have you actually seen it?” – and they hadn’t. They were reacting to reports of reports.
Tom: That goes all the way back to Life of Brian – and to Father Ted, of course.
Sara: Exactly. Life of Brian was boycotted by the Catholic Church – there were protests outside cinemas. But if you actually watch it, it makes very clear that Brian isn’t Jesus. He just happens to be there at the same time.
There’s that line – “He’s not the Messiah, he’s a very naughty boy” – which is beautiful, and endlessly quoted.
Abigoliah: Side note – have you seen this? When Kevin Smith made Dogma, it was also boycotted. People turned up to protest it – and he showed up and protested his own film.
Tom: Lovely.
Abigoliah: A news channel asked him, “Are you Kevin Smith?” and he said, “No, that’s him,” and pointed at his own placard. I’ll send you the clip – it’s one of the funniest things I’ve ever seen.
Sara: That’s also echoed in Father Ted. There’s an episode where they’re told to protest a film, and it’s just Ted and Dougal standing in the rain with these sad placards: “Down with this sort of thing.”
And then they go in and watch it anyway. It’s a perfect example of what we’d now call the Streisand effect – drawing more attention to something by trying to suppress it.
It’s just… bizarre what people get worked up about sometimes.
Abigoliah: Do you think The Vicar of Dibley had a positive impact on the Church of England? Did it affect attendance, or make people more open to religion? Because as an American in the UK, I’m always told how secular this country is – and yet we’ve had Father Ted, The Vicar of Dibley…
Tom: Morecambe and Wise were always dressing up as monks, and Dave Allen couldn’t wait to get into a cassock.
Sara: Nuns on the Run – which is brilliant.
Tom: Yes. And the Pythons are always dressing up in clerical garb, and so on.
Sara: I’m not sure – I don’t know the stats on whether attendance went up. But presenting a female vicar in 1994 – when the first women had only been ordained a few months earlier – was incredibly powerful.
The Church is quite slow at doing things – slow at being progressive, which is a shame. But portraying a positive, relatable female vicar was such a boon.
You do get people saying, “Oh – are you Geraldine?” I got that nickname partway through parish life.
Tom: Really?
Sara: Oh my God, yes. This was when I was still in parish, before I’d come out. The head of drama at one of my local secondary schools – who I worked with a lot – decided I was just like Geraldine. And I thought, I’m taking that.
I explained what was going on, and it was actually really lovely – but completely unintended. She’d picked up on that sense of approachability – that I was a bit amusing, not the stereotypical straight-laced vicar.
So yes, I 100% took that as a compliment. If we had more clergy like that – more approachable, more engaging – that would be a really good thing.
In the pilot episode – which I don’t think you covered – you’ve got the Reverend Pottle, who’s about 102, very dry, very much the traditional vicar. And there are four people in the congregation, including the verger and the organist.
Then Geraldine arrives, and suddenly – out of curiosity if nothing else – the church is full. If you could have that kind of impact, it’s phenomenal.
That’s such an opportunity to show people what God and Jesus are about – but we get so wrapped up in politics and side issues and nonsense. And that’s frustrating, because really we should be showing love. That’s the important bit.
Abigoliah: Yeah, that’s beautiful. And you were at a parish for a while, but then you left – can you tell me a bit about that?
Sara: Yeah. So when you’re ordained, you spend three or four years as a curate – working under a vicar, basically on-the-job training – and then you apply for your own parish.
The whole Dibley idea of being sent somewhere by the bishop doesn’t really happen anymore. You apply, you get shortlisted, you’re interviewed by representatives from the parish, and you go and visit – meet people, see the schools, get a sense of the place.
Abigoliah: So the community hires you?
Sara: Essentially, yes. If you’re starting a new worshipping community, the bishop might appoint you – but otherwise it’s a process. You apply, get shortlisted, interviewed, and spend time with the parish.
When I did it, we had a meal with four tables – one for each candidate – and people rotated round. I have never talked so much in my life. And I can talk.
After about four hours, I was completely drained. But you can’t just say, “I need a break” – you have to keep going, be yourself, repeat yourself, stay engaged.
In the end, they chose me – but they hired me as a supposedly straight man. During lockdown, I came out as trans.
I spent a long time working with my bishop, reading, praying, thinking it through. My first thought was, “Am I going to upset God?” So I needed to work that through properly – it wasn’t a rushed decision.
I recorded a video and wrote a letter to the parish explaining everything – who I am, what was happening. And for me, it wasn’t about erasing who I was before. That person is still part of me. My experiences are still part of me.
So I kept my old name as one of my middle names. Everyone’s different – some people want no connection at all – but for me, it’s part of my story.
As part of that process, I also had to go through a divorce, because my ex-wife didn’t want to be in a relationship with a woman or a trans partner. Which is her right.
I was put on extended leave – it was meant to be three months, and it turned into a year.
During that time, one of my parishes decided I was, apparently, a terrible vicar – not because I was trans, just… terrible timing, I suppose.
Tom: A remarkable coincidence.
Sara: Yes – after four years, they suddenly realised.
I had two parishes. One was saying, “When are you coming back? We miss you.” I’m still in touch with them – they’re wonderful. The other said, “No, we don’t want you back.”
So it became untenable.
And the difficult thing is, when you’re a vicar, your housing is tied to the job. You lose the job, you lose your home.
Tom: Much like being Prime Minister.
Sara: They get paid more – and get more abuse. I wouldn’t want that job.
Abigoliah: But the Church of England – and your bishop – did support you?
Sara: Yes.
Abigoliah: That’s beautiful. OK – here’s my pitch: the three of us get in touch with Richard Curtis. The Vicar of Dibley reboot – this time, a trans woman. It’s what 2026 needs. Sara, you’ll be fending off offers.
Tom, you’ve got Richard’s email, right?
Tom: I could mention it.
Sara: I love the idea. The only problem is there are only about twelve trans clergy in the whole Church of England.
Abigoliah: There were, like, twenty women when Geraldine Granger was created.
Sara: Yeah.
Abigoliah: This is the time.
Sara: I’m sold. I’m not a very good actor – but I do me really well. I’ve done theatre, but I’m better backstage.
Tom: Speaking of theatre, this is the question I think our listeners are waiting for… Am I going to be the one to ask? What’s Henry Cavill like?
Abigoliah: And just to go back to the beginning, when I said you’re the most interesting person – and you said you’re not – you’re a vicar, you’ve transitioned, you worked with the police, and you’ve worked with Henry Cavill. And you’re like, “Nothing interesting has ever happened to me.” So – what’s Henry Cavill like?
Sara: He’s a nice guy. I mean, I haven’t seen him in –
Tom: Come on – dish the dirt. What’s he really like?
Abigoliah: Tell us what Superman’s like.
Sara: He was the year below me at school, and we moved in very different social circles. I was in the choir, doing nerdy stuff – he was much more sporty, different group entirely.
But we did Grease together. This was sixth form – so ages 16 to 18. He was Danny, obviously. I was Doody, one of the other T-Birds – much smaller role in the film, but in the stage musical you get a bit more to do, even a solo.
So we were in that together, but we didn’t really hang out. I wouldn’t say we were friends. But he was a nice enough guy. That was about 26 years ago.
Tom: And –
Sara: I feel so old. That’s awful.
Abigoliah: Every time something’s twenty years ago, in my head it’s like five or six years ago.
Tom: Thank you.
Abigoliah: Shows I watch – I’m like, “They’re old, but not that old,” and then someone says, “No, that’s twenty years ago,” and I’m like, that’s not how time works.
Sara: Exactly. It feels like a long time ago, but also not. I don’t feel mid-forties – I feel mid-twenties.
Abigoliah: I have a question about Henry. You know how sometimes you meet someone and think, “Oh, you’re going to be someone”? Did you get that sense?
Sara: I think he was already doing things at school. This is slightly hazy memory – I might be misremembering – but I think he’d already been signed up for something with Disney.
So it was clear he was going to go somewhere.
And honestly, the weirdest thing is seeing someone you knew as a toy. When Superman came out and there were action figures – that’s a really strange feeling.
But I thought he was good. He captured the darker tone they were going for – but he didn’t quite have the duality that Christopher Reeve had.
With Reeve, the difference between Clark Kent and Superman is huge – he does it so well.
Tom: There’s that moment – cut from Superman II, but restored in the Donner cut – where Lois suspects Clark. She pulls a gun, it fires, and in that instant he just changes. Same clothes, same hair – but suddenly he’s Superman.
Sara: Yes, exactly.
Tom: And then he has to reveal himself – and she says the gun was firing blanks.
Sara: Christopher Reeve, for me, is the best Superman.
Tom: By a mile.
Sara: One and two are brilliant. Three and four… shouldn’t have happened. Three really freaked me out as a kid – the robot scene, turning someone into a machine – nightmare fuel.
Tom: Oh God, yes.
Sara: It took me ages to get over that. But yeah – one and two, fantastic.
Superman Returns – what was his name again?
Tom: Brandon Routh.
Sara: Thank you. I think he was pretty good, actually, because he carried on that particular style. But then Cavill went down a much darker, grittier route. He didn’t bring the playfulness – the nerdiness – of Reeve’s Clark Kent.
And that’s the whole point: Clark Kent is Superman’s camouflage. It needs to be more than just “I’m Superman in a suit.”
Tom: Richard Donner worked out that the tragedy of Superman is that Clark Kent loves Lois Lane, and Lois Lane loves Superman – and that can never be resolved. That’s what’s so perfect about those first two films.
Margot Kidder, I think, was a little tired and emotional by the time of Superman III, which is why she only has a small part.
Abigoliah: I guess my question is – what would you like people to know about the Church of England in 2026? Religion has been so… weaponised, as we mentioned. Is there anything you’d want people to understand about your belief system, or the Church, that they might not?
Sara: First of all – there’s no such thing as heathens. God loves everybody.
The Church has a reputation for being judgmental and opinionated about things it shouldn’t be – but actually, as a whole, it’s trying to do good.
If you look at things like food banks, there’s huge church involvement – not just Church of England, but across denominations. People are trying to support those going through difficult times.
And even though the UK is quite secular, people still come to church when it matters – when someone dies, when a child is born, for baptisms, for weddings. It’s about coming together, marking those moments, and having God as part of that.
The Church is so much more than the negative stereotypes. Most clergy – and most people in churches – are genuinely kind, compassionate, and trying to live out what Jesus actually taught: kindness, inclusion, and love.
If you’re divorced, if you have addiction issues, if you’re just an ordinary person off the street – you are welcome. Absolutely welcome.
Yes, church buildings can feel intimidating – big doors, big spaces – but if you cross that threshold, you’ll usually find people who just want to welcome you, offer you a cup of coffee, and be kind.
We don’t always get it right – we’re human – but the aim is to live up to those ideals.
Jesus didn’t go around condemning people. He said, “You are loved. You belong.” And when the Church gets it right, that’s what it reflects.
So when you say you’re a heathen – you’re not. You’re loved by God. So – suck it.
Abigoliah: Put that on a T-shirt.
Sara: My favourite one I saw was: “God loves everyone equally – but I’m his favourite.”
Tom: So, Sara, we need to wrap this up. We have a couple of final questions.
We’ve talked about a lot of comedy – are there any shows you think we’ve overlooked? Anything that might not be on the usual lists that we should seek out, assuming this podcast runs and runs?
Sara: I’m sure it will – there’s so much to cover.
Are you including films? Because the old Ealing comedies are amazing –
Tom: Films are excluded for now. We might do a film season later, but at the moment we’re sticking to TV and radio.
Abigoliah: Radio as well.
Sara: OK – so radio: Just a Minute. It’s been going forever, and it’s so clever. Such a simple idea, but it just works, and it keeps working.
For TV – Mr Bean. Very funny, and it still stands up. The visuals date a bit, but Rowan Atkinson’s performance is brilliant.
Also The Thin Blue Line –
Tom: Oh yes.
Sara: Very funny, especially with the policing side – it presses all the right buttons for me.
The Brittas Empire –
Tom: Oh yes.
Sara: That popped into my head this morning. It’s very clever – classic character types, but used in interesting ways.
I know you’ve covered Yes Minister, which is fantastic, and I think you’ve mentioned Dad’s Army –
Tom: Yes, that’s coming up.
Sara: And then – Goodness Gracious Me. That’s a big one.
It’s an all-Asian cast, and it flips a lot of the usual stereotypes on their head – like the “going out for an English” sketch. It’s brilliant, really funny, and quite important in terms of breaking down those caricatures.
I’m sure I’ll think of loads more as soon as we finish – I’ll end up messaging you.
Tom: There’s no shortage.
Abigoliah: Yeah.
Sara: It’s really just a case of sifting through and finding the best bits – that’s the challenge. But you’ve got so many series ahead of you, you can cover all of this. Please, please, please – yes.
Tom: We don’t pay guests for coming on, unfortunately – and we don’t get paid much ourselves. We have some loyal patrons who contribute, and we’re very grateful to them, but no one’s getting rich off this.
So instead of payment, we’d like to offer you the chance to nominate a charity. Hopefully our listeners will go and donate.
Sara: Yes, please. I’d like to nominate Mermaids, the trans youth charity.
As we’ve touched on, being trans in the UK – and globally – is becoming more difficult. For young people who are gender non-conforming – trans, non-binary, gender-fluid – it can be incredibly isolating. And it’s also difficult for their families, who often don’t have a support network.
Mermaids exists to support both young people and their families, and to advocate for better rights and support. It’s an incredibly important organisation.
Trans people are a very small part of the population, but one of the most targeted and misunderstood. If you can, please donate – financially, or with your time. They do amazing work.
If I’d had access to something like that as a child, I think things might have been very different for me.
Tom: Where should people go to donate?
Sara: Go to mermaids.org.uk – or just search for Mermaids online. They’re a fantastic organisation. Please support them if you can.
Tom: We’ll put the link in the show notes. Sara, thank you so much – this has been an absolute delight.
Sara: It’s been a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me on. I really don’t feel worthy to be here – but it’s been wonderful.
Abigoliah: Thank you so much. That was Reverend Sara, everyone.
Tom: You do know the most interesting people.
Abigoliah: I met her through Ria, and she fascinates me every time I talk to her. And what I love is that she doesn’t think she’s interesting.
Tom: That’s very charming of her. But yes – that was a great conversation. And unexpected. It’s nice to look at these shows from different angles. It hadn’t occurred to me that someone like her would have grown up watching the same shows – Father Ted, Monty Python, and so on.
So – are you more curious about Father Ted now? Or more cautious?
Abigoliah: I’m definitely curious. I’ve heard a lot about it – it always comes up.
I did know about the writer’s views, but it’s not something I’ve had a personal connection to, since I haven’t seen the show. So I haven’t had that sense of disappointment.
I think Sara made a good point about it being a cultural touchstone. For that reason, I don’t think it’s off-limits. I’m open to watching it.
But I also loved what she said about Geraldine Granger – her openness, her warmth, how well that character is drawn. As she was describing it, I found myself thinking, “I really want Dawn French and Richard Curtis to hear this.” It just really landed for me.
Tom: Not impossible.
Well – we’ve been very touched by people signing up to our Patreon. Thank you so much.
If you’d like to support us, for £3 a month you get ad-free listening. For £5 a month, you get ad-free listening plus bonus mini-episodes – extra chats at the end of recordings where we follow tangents from the main episode.
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Abigoliah: And we’re on YouTube as well, if you want to watch the podcast.
As always, thank you so much for listening – we’ll see you soon for the next episode.
Tom: See you soon. Cheerio.
Abigoliah: Bye-bye.